Near verbatim transcript of the press stakeout by SRSG Ghassan Salamé, Geneva
Near verbatim transcript of the press stakeout by Ghassan Salamé, Special Representative of the Secretary-General
and Head of the United Nations Support Mission in Libya
Geneva, Switzerland, 28 February 2020
Ghassan Salamé: As you know, UNSMIL has started three tracks in application of the Berlin conclusion and of Resolution 2510. The first one is going well, and its next meeting is on March 15th, that is the Economic and Financial. The second one ended last Sunday, here, it was the military one. At the end of the military track, also called the 5 + 5 track, the Mission has put together a draft proposal for the two sides to take home and show it to their principals, hoping the principals would accept it or express some observations on it. We will see. Then, there is the third track, the political track. The political track was schedule for the 26 of this month. Everything was agreed, the principals and the individuals invited, and everybody was coming. We were surprised the day the meeting was supposed to start that some people had to leave because they were asked to. However, those who stayed decided that the occasion was too rare and precious and therefore that the political track should start with those who stayed in Geneva. We had three days of fruitful discussion, and the Mission has been active in putting together the terms of reference for this track, and the also the agenda for this track and we will certainly call for a next round and certainly do our utmost to convince those who did not show up or came back after reaching Geneva to discuss with them the reasons for their absence.
Before everything else, I would like to say that the country in the past 24 hours had seen has witnessed a very serious violation of the truce. In fact, it could have been almost a breakdown of that truce with many areas being hit by shelling. The airport of Tripoli was hit at 7 o’clock in the morning. Yesterday at 5 p.m. in the afternoon one single family in Garabulli lost five of its members in a shell. And, today, many areas in the capital have been also shelled. It is clear that neither one of the three tracks can move positively while the cannon is doing what it is doing right now. That is why, once again, we call on the respect of the truce that had been accepted by the two sides on January 12, and we insist that the three tracks will continue despite everything, the political, the economic and the military. Thank you.
أود أولا ان اشير إلى ان الساعات الأخيرة في ليبيا كانت عصيبة وأن الهدنة التي كان تم التوافق عليها في 12 يناير الماضي قد خرقت بطريقة غير مسبوقة إذ أن عائلة من خمسة أفراد في منطقة "قرابولي" قد أصيبت يوم أمس الساعة الخامسة بعد الظهر، وأصيب مطار "معيتيقة" صباح اليوم الساعة السابعة صباحاً بعد عدد كبير من القذائف، أدت إلى تدمير أجزاء مهمة منه، وأن القذائف عمت عدداً كبيراً من مناطق طرابلس في داخل المدينة وفي ضواحيها.
إني أحذر من هذا الانزلاق البعيد عن الهدنة التي قبل بها الطرفان في الثاني عشر من يناير الماضي. وأقول أن هذا التصعيد غير مقبول وأن قصف المناطق المدنية قد يرقى إلى جريمة الحرب. وأن قصف المرافق العامة أمر في غاية الخطورة لا يقبل به القانون الدولي الإنساني.
وأضيف أيضاً أن هناك مخاطر من أن تتحول الحرب الليبية إلى حرب إقليمية على الأرض الليبية بسبب وجود أطراف غير ليبية تشترك من قريب أو من بعيد بهذا القتال. من ناحية أخرى فإن البعثة مصممة على السير قدماً في المسارات الثلاثة التي وضعناها:
- المسار الأول هو المسار الاقتصادي والمالي الذي يجري بصورة جيدة، وجلسته المقبلة هي في الخامس عشر من آذار-مارس-
- المسار العسكري الذي انتهت جولته الثانية الأسبوع الماضي – يوم الأحد- من خمسة أيام. فإن البعثة تقدمت بنص توفيقي حمله الوفدان إلى رؤسائهما كي نأمل بموافقتهما وبالتالي التوقيع عليه، وهذا ما سنراه في الأيام المقبلة. مما سيستدعي- بالأرجح- إلى جولة ثالثة لهذا المسار العسكري.
- أما بالنسبة للمسار السياسي: فكنا قد اتفقنا مع مختلف الأطراف الليبية على أن يبدأ هذا المسار في السادس والعشرين من هذا الشهر، وكان الاتفاق واضحاً على طريقة تمثيل مختلف الأطراف الليبية وعلى حضور كامل المدعوين إلى جنيف في الخامس والعشرين لكي تبدأ المحدثات في السادس والعشرين. لكن عددا من الحاضرين طلب منه أن يغادر لأسباب مختلفة. منها من دعا إلى تأجيل المفاوضات، ومنهم من وضع شروط تعجيزية علينا في اللحظة الأخيرة بعد أن كان قد قبل بالآلية التي وضعناها.
ولكني أريد أن أحيي من صميم قلبي أولئك الذين طلبوا من البعثة الاستمرار والانطلاق في الحوار السياسي وانطلاق المسار السياسي. وأريد أن أؤكد أن نصف المدعوين قد بقوا في جنيف وتشاوروا خلال ثلاثة أيام على الأفكار التي وضعتها البعثة أمامهم، إما فيما يخص آلية العمل داخل هذا المسار أو فيما يخص جدول أعماله. وإني سأدعو إلى جولة مقبلة من المسار السياسي خلال الأيام القليلة المقبلة.
Question: First a point of clarification. You being a consummate diplomat as ever, could you explain to us which side was responsible for this serious violation of the truce and your message to them. And then my question, it does seem odd to be asking the Special Rapporteur for Libya about Syria but clearly, right now, there are two wars and Turkey and Russian in two wars are on opposite sides. Are you worried that the deterioration of the situation in Idlib could affect your process?
Ghassan Salamé: Well, I am not going to be very diplomatic, for once. I’m going to say that the Speaker of the House of the High State Council has asked for a report of the talks, but everybody was here, and I thought that his request came too late. I should say also that the Speaker of the House has put new conditions on his agreement to participate that were never mentioned to me during talks with me. But I should add that 7 out of 13 members of the House of Representatives remained in Geneva, despite the call for the boycott, and participated actively in the discussions for the past three days. I would like to salute their courage and their determination.
Where are we in a hurry? Why don’t we listen to all those people who say ‘Why don’t you do this before’, ‘Why don’t we wait on what happens in the other tracks before’ ? Because I am worried. Because the Libyans are worried. Because the Libyans keep asking me don’t waste any time.
So, I ask those who are calling for a report of these talks to talk to the Libyans, and not to me. And to stop writing me letters every single day with new conditions. To talk to their fellow Libyans, and explain to them that they should sustain shelling and war and the closure of their ports and airports before they make us the grace and honour of coming here. We are pursuing our line despite the procrastination of these cynics.
For your second question, it’s an absolutely relevant question. I do believe that there are now players who are now very active in both Syria and Libya. And I do believe that there is a mutual sort of interaction between the two conflicts that is not favorable for peace in neither one.
Question: Who actually show up and who did not show up? Can you give us a bit more details?
Ghassan Salamé: It’s difficult to tell you. The Speaker of the House of Representative asked everybody to go back. There were 13 invited; 7 stayed. So, there were also people who did not necessarily follow the orders that were given. Many others who were invited stayed. I would like to say that, in particular, the women who we had invited decided to stay, probably because they are more sensible to the fact that no time should be wasted on small, petty details before trying to find a solution to the crisis.
Question: What about the other side? And what are your next steps?
Ghassan Salamé: There is no other side. Those who left are from both sides. The High State Council was not here. The HOR decided not to be here but 7 members of the HOR who were invited stayed, while six left.
السؤال: السيد غسان سلامة عدد من المتحدثين في مجلس النواب اتهموا البعثة الأممية بالتدخل في تحديد من يمثل المجلس. هم ذكروا أسماء: ذكروا اسم حضرتكم و ذكروا اسم نائبة حضرتكم. فإذا كان من الممكن أن توضح لنا كيف تم اختيار البعثة، فعلاً تخلت في تعيين مجلس النواب؟
غسان سلامة: (هذا كلام غير صحيح وغير مقبول). هناك آلية واحدة نفذت على كلا المجلسين في طرابلس وطبرق، وهذه الآلية تقول بما يلي:
يجتمع أعضاء كل دائرة انتخابية في مكان ما ويصوتون على من يمثلهم. حصل هذا الأمر في المجلس الأعلى للدولة بحضور أربعة ممثلين للبعثة للتأكد من أنه لم يقصى أحد عن هذا التصويت. وحصل الأمر عينه تماماً في مجلس النواب، بحيث أن الدوائر الثلاثة عشر انتخبت بكامل حريتها وبوجود ممثلين للبعثة-ممثليها- في حوار جنيف. إذا كان هناك من هو ليس مستعداً للقبول بهذه النتائج، فأهنئه على روحه الديمقراطية. ولكن البعثة نفذت ما كانت تعهدت به، ولا أقبل أي انتقاد في هذا المجال.
Interpreter: Some of the members of the Parliament accused UNSMIL that it intervened in determining the names of the representatives in the commission. They mentioned the name of the Special Representative and the Deputy Special Representative in particular, so the question was, ‘What really happened and how did the election take place?’
Mr. Salamé answered: That this is not true. There was one single mechanism that was applied to both parties – both the party that belongs to Tripoli and the one that belongs to Tobruk. That mechanism depended on the fact that members of each electoral district would meet, together in a special place, and vote for the representatives in the Commission. That happened in the Higher State Council with the presence of four representatives of UNSMIL. They were present there to make sure that no exclusion whatsoever would happen. The same thing happened in the House of Representatives. Therefore all 13 districts, with their freedom, chose their representatives here in Geneva. We do not accept whatsoever these accusations leveled against us. And those who would accept to move away from the talks, I congratulate them on their democratic spirit, but I myself do not accept such accusations.
السؤال : سعادة المبعوث الأممي: هناك تصريحات صدرت من طرابلس ومن شرق ليبيا
من طرابلس: ربطت العودة للمسار السياسي بتحقيق تقدم بالمسار العسكري، أي بعد الجولة الثانية من اجتماعات (خمسة + خمسة). وشرق ليبيا كان هنا وزير الخارجية "الحويج" وقال بأنه لن ندخل بـ أو لن نوافق على وقف إطلاق النار إلا بعد تفكيك الميليشيات وتسليم الأسلحة. هذه الشروط معقدة من الطرفين هل هذا يعني بأن المسار السياسي لا يمكن أن ينطلق إلا بعد تحقيق نجاحات في المسار العسكري؟
غسان سلامة: أشكرك على هذا السؤال لأنه سيسمح للتوضيح. لقد اتفقنا في برلين على أن المسارات متزامنة، وقلنا أيضاً أنها ليست متلازمة. بأي معنى؟ بمعنى أنه إذا حصل تقدم في مسار ما من المسارات الثلاث، لا نوقفه لكي ننتظر الآخرين. وإذا حصل تعثر في أحد المسارات الثلاثة، فلا نتوقف في المسارات التي هي سارية لأن الأعضاء المشتركين في كل من المسارات ليس هم أنفسهم. هناك مجموعة من المسؤولين والخبراء في المسار الاقتصادي. هناك مجموعة من المسؤولين والخبراء في المجال السياسي. وهناك عسكريون يبحثون في المجال العسكري والأمني. وبالتالي فنحن لا ننتظر، ليس هناك تلازم. لذلك لم أستمع للرأي القائل بأن "فلننتظر هنا ولننتظر هناك":
أولا لأن الليبيين لا يريدونني أن أنتظر وهذا ما يجب أن يفهمه الجميع. يصلني يومياً مئات الرسائل التي تقول "سيروا إلى الأمام، لم نعد نتحمل هذه الحرب المفروضة علينا، وهذا القصف وهذا التهجير".
وثانياً لأني أبلغت الأطراف المعنية جميعها بأن هناك تزامناً ولكن ليس هناك تلازم من بين المسارات.
Interpreter: There were declarations and announcements made in Tripoli from the East of Libya that linked the return to the political track to making progress in the military track. One representative from the East of Libya said they would not accept any ceasefire until the militias are disintegrated. That adds to the complexities of the situation. Does this mean the political track will not be launched until the military track makes progress?
Mr. Salamé answered: In Berlin, we said that we had parallel tracks rather than tracks that are conditional on each other, that is to say that any progress made on a track would not impede the others, or any stoppage on another track would not impede any of the two other tracks. And I have to say that the members in each of the track, whether economic, political or military, are not the same persons. It is the parallel tracks rather than conditional tracks that we are working on. I have not heard of any opinion saying that we have to wait for one track to succeed. What I know for sure is that the Libyans do not want to wait anymore, and everybody has to understand that. I receive like one hundred messages everyday from Libyans asking me to move forward. They cannot accept war, they cannot take war anymore. They cannot take displacement and shelling anymore. And I have already told all the stakeholders that again these talks will work on the basis of parallel tracks rather than conditional tracks.
Question: As we know the meeting is over. When will you convene again a meeting in Geneva, here? With that ceasefire, and the attacks by Hafta on Tripoli the capital of Libya, how are you going to achieve sustainable peace? Don’t you think it’s better to find a solution to the conflict first and then sit at the table and find a better political solution?
Ghassan Salamé: You will not find a UN man who call for war; we are paid to call for peace. Therefore, I am going to work on a ceasefire. I have worked on a ceasefire. The Security Council, in Resolution 2510, Article 4, 5 and 6, asked me to bring five officers from the two sides and to try with them to transform the truce, that had been called for by the Turkish and Russian Presidents on the 8th and implemented on the 12th, to transform it into a full-fledged agreement for a ceasefire. And that is exactly what UNSMIL did in this building, for two rounds. After 11 days of negotiations, we have come to some kind of compromise text that was written by the mission, given to the two delegations in order to bring to their superiors, their principals, so that, hopefully, they agree on it and we transform this very shaky truce, especially after what happened yesterday and today, into a lasting ceasefire.
I will keep convening the meeting during the months of March, probably a third round. I’m waiting for the answers from the principals on the drafts I sent with the military. I hope to have the answers by Monday. If I have the answers and there is a need for a third round of the military, it will be given priority. If not, I will call for the second round [of the political talks] in a few days later. As for the economic track, the third meeting is going to take place on the 15th of March.
السؤال: حضرتك تقول بأن هناك رسائل مستمرة من الليبيين تطالب البعثة بتعجيل عمليات وقف الحرب في ليبيا. في نفس الوقت تحذر من إمكانية وقوع حرب إقليمية في ليبيا. هناك أكثر من سؤال في هذا الإطار ولكن إلى أي مدى مثلاً العمليات الأوروبية التي يفترض أن تبدأ نهاية مارس بمراقبة وصول الأسلحة إلى ليبيا ستكون قادرة على ضبط أو الحد من إمكانية وقوع هذه الحرب. وما موقع الاتحاد الإفريقي من هذه المسألة أيضاً باعتبار ليبيا دولة افريقية وهل ستكون المحادثات بمساراتها الثلاث قادرة على إيجاد حل فعلي ل ليبيا بدون تدخل دولي في هذه القضية.
غسان سلامة:
هذه لائحة أسئلة طويلة. سأجيب على الأقل على سؤال أو سؤالين منها.
أولا بالنسبة للاتحاد الأوروبي، هذا قرار للاتحاد الأوروبي وليس ل الأمم المتحدة. وهذا القرار الذي اتخذه الاتحاد الأوروبي لا يهدف إلى وقف الحرب، يهدف إلى مراقبة خرق حظر السلاح. لكنها مبادرة أوروبية وليس أممية.
الموضوع الثاني، موضوع الاتحاد الإفريقي: ذهبت بنفسي إلى الاجتماع العالي المستوى لرؤساء الدول المنخرطين في لجنة ليبيا في الاتحاد الإفريقي في "برازافيل" منذ أسبوعين. واتفقنا هناك، وثم ذهب السيد الأمين العام إلى قمة الاتحاد الإفريقي في "أديس أبابا" بعدها بأسبوع. ولقد أكدنا للاتحاد الإفريقي -الذي حضر كل اجتماعات برلين التحضيرية بالمناسبة- على عدة مستويات. كان السيد ساسون غاسو موجود -رئيس اللجنة- وكان أيضاً رئيس الاتحاد الإفريقي لهذا العام، الذي هو رئيس "رامافوزا" موجوداً. كما كان رئيس المفوضية الإفريقية موجوداً. إذا كانت إفريقيا ممثلة تمثيلاً جيداً في اجتماع برلين. والدول الإفريقية الثلاث -ومنها دولتان محاذيتان ل ليبيا، في مجلس الأمن الدولي: تونس والنيجر صوتتا مع القرار 2510.
إذا هناك تفاهم وتعاون مع الاتحاد الإفريقي. نحن ذهبنا خطوة أكثر وقلنا إذا كان الاتحاد الإفريقي يريد أن يرسل -لأن ليس لديه أحد في ليبيا- مبعوثاً أو يريد أن يرسل خلية تتابع الأعمال في طرابلس فإننا سنستضيفها في الأمم المتحدة وسنؤمن لها كل ما يجب. وعندما يزور أي مسؤول إفريقي ليبيا فإنه يستعمل إجمالاً طائرة الأمم المتحدة، وسيبقى الأمر قائماً كذلك. أيضاً لقد قرر الاتحاد الإفريقي أن يقيم في شهر مايو نوع من الاحتفال الكبير للمصالحة بين الليبيين. وتعهدت الأمم المتحدة أن تساعده في تنظيم هذا الاحتفال.
ماذا أقول أكثر من ذلك! أيضاً أن الاتحاد الإفريقي موجود في مجموعات العمل الدولية التي تتابع هذا المسار، وأنها أيضا موجودة في لجنة المتابعة التي اجتمعت في ميونخ منذ أسبوع -هي ستجتمع كل شهر- وستجتمع المرة المقبلة في روما في 19 مارس المقبل.
سؤال: حضرتك تصر على جعل هذه المحادثات ليبية-ليبية من دون تدخل دولي. هل ستتمكن من الاستمرار في ذلك من دون تأمين دعم دولي؟
Ghassan Salamé: Let me answer this in English. Look, you have a number of countries, including the five permanent members of the Security Council, plus a number of countries who have been intervening, and continue to intervene, in Libyan affairs, who met one day, January 19th, in Berlin, and committed, publicly, to sustain the three tracks. They again met, or some of them met, in New York, in the Security Council, and agreed on Resolution 2510, where the countries commit to support the three tracks. I will answer you question un-diplomatically. Did I get the kind of support needed since then? My answer is, no. I need much more support. They don’t need to be in the room; the dialogue is Libyan-Libyan, and I will not change my mind on that. But they have many ways of putting pressure on those who violate the ceasefire, on those who violate the arms embargo, on those who do not come to Geneva political talks, on those who give orders to sabotage the military or political talks. They could be doing all this. Did they do it the way they committed to do it? My answer is, no.
Interpreter: The first question had to do with, that there are continuous messages from the Libyans, as the Special Representative said, for the UNSMIL to expedite, put an end to this war, and you also warned that the regional war could take place at the same time. My question is, how far the European-led operations that are due to start at the end of March to monitor the arrival of arms and weaponry, how far can they stop war? And what is the role envisaged for the African Union? And a third question was: Will the talks continue on all three tracks without any foreign intervention? Can you ensure that?
The last question was answered, the first question: As to the European Union, this is the decision of the European Union; it is not the decision of the United Nations. And I have to tell you that the decision of the European Union does not aim at stopping the war, put an end to the war, but rather to monitor the smuggling or the exportation of weapons. Again, this is a European initiative. As for the African Union, the African Union was represented in a high-level meeting for the heads of State in Brazzaville. We, I, also, was there in this meeting in Brazzaville two weeks ago.
The Secretary-General had a meeting or attended the African Summit held in Addis Abeba a week later. The African Union is represented by the head of the African committee, the current head of the African Union, the head of the African Commission. They’re all in synch. They all attended the meeting in Berlin, along with the fact that we have three African States represented in the Security Council: Tunisia, Niger and South Africa. And they all agreed to the latest Security Council Resolution. The African Union, I asked them to send an envoy, or probably a unit, to follow-up on the proceedings in Tripoli. And I said that we will host them. We, as UNSMIL, will provide them with all the necessary, their needs. They can even use our aircrafts, and that is the case with all other invitees. So, the African Union decided next May they will hold a celebration for the reconciliation between the Libyan parties, and we pledged that we will help and support them. So, finally, the African Union, as a matter of fact, is present in all international working groups related to Libya, and they attended the follow-up committee that was held in Munich last week, and will attend the meeting to be held in Rome next time.